1. Warming up with blackout poetry of Chapters 20, 21, and 22
2. Enjoying our first Silent Socratic Seminar and signing the Sparknotes Oath
3. Wrapping up (out loud) with kudos, epiphanies, and lingering questions
HW:
1. For Friday, Oct 11: Read Chapters (23), 24, 25, and 26; create your next Socratic ticket.
2. By Monday, October 14, you must MEMORIZE your sonnet.
What is Steinbeck's main purpose in including alcohol to make Cathy lose her inhibitions? What does that tell us about her character and the dangerous capabilities of alcohol?
ReplyDeleteI think he needed someway to show weakness in her as a character. The description of her after drinking clearly shows how dangerous the act is for her, it completely breaks down the walls of lies and manipulation that shes had to rely on to hide, and what were left with is a portrayal of her raw self
DeleteAlcohol is Cathy's "weakness." It will probably be her downfall later in the book. This means that alcohol would serve a positive role which runs counter to religious perceptions of it (Liza says it's bad, Samuel and, maybe, Steinbeck himself say it's good). If Steinbeck suggests that alcohol is beneficial in this way it could be another way of dissenting from Christianity in general.
DeleteAlcohol acts in a manner that it causes the user to lose their inhibitions, so in a way their true character comes through. When Cathy or "Kate" was with Faye, she was pretending to be Faye's daughter figure, and as soon as she consumed the wine, she became who she was. Alcohol has amplified her personality before as well with Mr. Edwards, when she drank champagne and lost her calm, collected demeanor. Steinbeck uses alcohol as an excuse for Cathy to break character to the monster she is, for she has no control of herself when her inhibitions are down.
DeleteAlcohol is definitely her kryptonite...after listening to Matthew's found poem, I wonder if alcohol is supposed to have a somewhat religious connotation (red wine as the blood of Christ). If so, it makes sense that her body wouldn't tolerate it so well. However, the reading might be a stretch because Steinbeck has her drinking champagne, not red wine. In any case, I do find it comforting that Cathy has a weakness; she's not impenetrable.
DeleteIts almost as if it uncovers her true spirit, and that is why she avoids it at all costs, its her kryptonite almost.
DeleteAt the same time, the alcohol almost makes me more nervous. It illuminates on how uncontrolled she is. Yet even when she can't control herself and has almost a monstrous outbreak, she still regains her position (Faye). She can make up for her supposed weaknesses with even greater manipulation, therefore insinuating that her abilities to violate trust overcome her personal limitations.
DeleteIt's interesting to me what Jalil is saying here about divorcing the perception of alcohol in the story from its biblical connotations. I think alcohol isn't a positive here-- while it does make it easier to see Cathy for who she really is, the release of her inhibitions harms everyone around her. For Cathy, honesty isn't a virtue; the people around her (and, it seems, Cathy herself) are happier when Cathy is actively maintaining her facade. In that sense, alcohol becomes a device Steinbeck uses to illustrate how for Cathy, deception is (almost) a kindness- a contrast to the blatant honesty of the good-at-heart characters (Adam, Samuel, etc)
DeleteWhy exactly does she care so much though? She gets violent and weird but she can really just say she was drunk and didn't know what she was saying, thats what Faye believed on page 234. And the last paragraph on 232 says that she felt no fear when she drank -- which is interesting considering the role of fear in relation to Cathy. She hadn't been said to be afraid since Mr. Edwards, so what does the alcohol have to do with it? I think there could be something else she is worried about.
DeleteEveryone has heard the phrase that, "drunk actions are sober thoughts." I think Steinbeck is trying to highlight that through his use of alcohol. With alcohol Cathy is not able to keep her facade active, she is not able to play that part. Cathy looses control, as everyone does. It shows that Cathy truly is evil in her heart, and that nothing is making her due that. She consciously tries to hide that she is evil, and when her conscious stream is dented she isn't able to hide that.
DeleteSamuel says it's the details that astonish him. What details might Steinbeck be leaving for us that have some hidden significance? What is that significance?
ReplyDeleteI think, in terms of Samuels character, one of the biggest details is the ambiguous nature of his feelings towards Cathy. He can't necessarily put his finger on what about her makes him uncomfortable, but out of everyone else thats interacted with her, it seems that He's had the most significant perspective so far.
Delete"The devil is in the details" isn't that a saying? Thought I'd bring it up... and perhaps it relates to looking closer at Cathy. At face value, many perceive her as a pretty girl... but look a little closer, she's a manipulative and cold with many physically odd features.
DeleteThat's a good point, I agree
DeleteI think that Steinbeck subtly integrates various details that carry lots of weight throughout the novel, but the more significant events hinder these little details and their meaning, therefore people move by them quickly. I think one of the most prevalent details we can recognize from these past few chapters are the names that are given to the children. Obviously, they start with A and C, mirroring Cain and Abel, which help guide our attention to the relationships throughout the novel that follow this trend. Cathy and Adam, Charles and Adam, Caleb and Aaron. All of these relationships are a battles between good vs. evil, will Aaron and Caleb's relationship follow this pattern?
DeleteWhy does Steinbeck wait until now to elaborate so deeply in the telling of Cain and Abel? How might Cathy's children relate to the story as will, based off their names?
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of Steinbeck's book revovles around our interpretation of religion. Look at Samuel's wife. How she interprets her faith varies from that of our husband. Perhaps Steinbeck waited to tell the whole story to allow our perspectives to foster individually uninfluenced by the the original telling? Now, we have a new perspective (than before reading) to interepret the Biblical story. How you perceive it may be different than I, yet such is the foundation of Steinbeck's philosophy.
DeleteHe could be foreshadowing to how the twins will interact with each other, perhaps maybe he could be foretelling that there will be a Cain and Abel situation with the twins, to relate to his biblical interpretation.
DeleteI think Steinbeck was only hinting at the story of Cain and Abel up until now. Now that we have 3 sets of brothers, all with names that start with "C" and "A", we can already predict how the story will play out for Aron and Caleb as well. It represents how the story of Cain and Abel was not just a one time occurrence. Because Cain killed his brother, he sent death into the world and now, it happens everywhere and history repeats itself.
DeleteI think it was really interesting finding out that their names started with a C and an A. A while ago we were analyzing the similarities and differences of the two stories and we mentioned that Cain and Abel were born from the same mother and Charles and Adam had different mothers. Cathy's children are born from one mother, relating them more to Cain and Abel in this way.
DeleteI'm not the world's best religious scholar, but I am fascinated by the notion that we are all descendants of Cain, who was a murderer. In Steinbeck's retelling, since the "Abel" character lives, we don't know who we're the descendants of. And now that Cathy has birthed twins, we have two boys who are half-Cathy running around. I can understand Adam's anxiety over who they will be as the result of having her blood in them.
DeleteI think that's a very interesting perspective, suggesting that the story of Adam and Charles is really a parable for how the Cain and Abel story went down in ancient history. Steinbeck greatly varies on the Cain and Abel story in a number of ways, for example having Adam (Abel) wander instead of Charles (Cain).
DeleteIf Adam and Charles represent Cain and Abel, the two primary cogs of the story in its plot and symbolic meaning, then what could the introduction of Cathy suggest? Is she a third entity or does she somehow derive from certain elements of one or both of the brothers? If she's a separate beast all her own, she seemingly represents the utmost evil, which begs the question of whether there may be some fourth being to counteract her. If Cathy is Satan, maybe the counter to her would be God... not too sure whether Steinbeck intends this at all, but whether he did or didn't, it would be worthwhile trying to figure out who may serve as Cathy's foil in the story and generally exploring this idea further.
In a way, I think Steinbeck was "holding our hands" as we read. Before this part, we were encouraged to look at the biblical symbolism between C and A names (and the entire book) but it was never proven that Steinbeck was trying draw those connections. With this part, and the rise of two more C and A names, I think Steinbeck was trying to give the reader either a little shove in the right direction or confirm what they had already thought. Something I did find interesting through, is that even though I read it as Steinbeck trying to help us out, he still seemed to want to leave the interpretations open to us. It was kind of a "hey, here are the tools and materials you are going to need. Go ahead and build what you want with them" moment.
DeleteI was really interested in how, despite the overt similarities to "Cain" and "Abel," and Adam's own introspection on the similarities between that story and him and Charles, Adam still decides to name the twins Caleb and Aaron. Do you think he's intentionally setting them up to follow that parallel? If so, why, when it brought him so much pain as a child? Or, alternatively, might Adam think that sibling violence and resentment is inevitable regardless, and thus names don't matter?
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's not necessarily significant in terms of Adam's character, but rather solely due to Steinbeck's Intent. Adam probably doesn't realize the connection between Cain and Abel, Caleb and Aaron, C and A, but Steinbeck intentionally names that way so the reader is able to foreshadow whats to come.
DeleteIn some ways, I think perhaps this could be a bit of a projection of Adam's childhood - his boys might suffer the same way he did growing up. Adam has a very different personality than his father, so perhaps this is his way of proving himself as a better father - recreating the same "playing field" in hopes reffing it better...?
DeleteTo me at least, it didn't seem that those names were selected by any of the characters' intentional volition. The twins start crying when their respective names are called, suggesting that fate itself somehow played a role in their names' having followed the precedent of the "C and A" basis.
DeleteIt could be fate, or it could be Steinbeck. The way this story has run so far, it seems that it's really just Steinbeck himself dropping hints for his readers when these sorts of things occur. What exactly this entails for the rest of the story remains unclear to me but I am certain that the twins will have a part in the underlying theme relating to "Cain and Abel" that Steinbeck is trying to communicate.
I think Steinbeck is intentionally creating a parallel between the story of Cain and Abel through naming the twins Caleb and Aaron. I believe, however, that Adam gave the twins these names because of the insights and lessons learned by Cain through the biblical story and how the main idea might reflect back on his children: to choose love rather than hatred.
DeleteI personally don't feel like Adam really was looking into the names and thier similarities too much because it's not in the name it's in the blood of each of them on whether they turn out to be like Adam and Charles. Also I think alot of the influence came from God because he was the one that influenced Mr. Hamilton to take Mrs. Hamilton's bible and therefore when the naming took place he had names readily available.
DeleteI love your idea, Kira, that it might be Adam's way of do-over-ing his own childhood. I wonder if, instead of a rebuke of his father, it might be more of a way for him to prove to himself that he was innocent when it came to his torment at the hands of Charles- that is, if Caleb and Aaron end up fighting, then that means that any issues in Adam's childhood weren't because Adam is inherently bad or unworthy, but because there's an inherited and unavoidable predetermination for conflict in children/siblings/people.
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ReplyDeleteI think it is so fascinating how Cathy (Kate) all of a sudden changes her will and personality throughout the book. In earlier chapters whilst carrying Adam's children, she was cold and distant and didn't want to do anything to help Adam. But as soon as she got to the whorehouse, she became helpful, and was impressively kind to the girls in the house. It made me think that perhaps her personality switches up based on her circumstances, possibly pointing to the fact that she may have some sort of personality disorder.
ReplyDeleteVery nice comment, Lily. I think Cathy is highly manipulative and understands how to take advantage of people's vulnerabilities. She molds herself to fit what people need, and then violates their trust. I can't really think of her having an identity. She's rather a figure, that shifts to fit the desires of her next victim.
DeleteI wrote this on somebody's reading ticket, but I find it interesting that Cathy changes her name to "Kate" after leaving Adam. Why do you think she sheds the letter "C" at this point?
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DeleteMaybe the name "Cathy" for her heeds too much weight on her past mistakes, such as burning houses, being beaten and shooting Adam. She wants to escape her past and what better way than giving yourself a new name, and a new persona, such as the one she develops in the whorehouse?
DeleteI don't know. Is it necessarily her decision? Or just Steinbeck's. This may be a stretch, but we're never really given a description of her ever writing or spelling out her name, so maybe the use of K instead of C is a choice solely made by Steinbeck to clue in the reader. If it was an intentional decision by Cathy, the only reason I could think of would be to stay close enough to the truth to make her new alias/identity believable
DeleteSteinbeck has stuck to a striking "C and A" name scheme, especially when discussing the Trasks. Cain, Abel, Charles, Adam, Cyrus, Cathy, Aaron, Caleb. I think the shedding of the C shows an deep shift away from the Trasks as Kate abandons Adam and leaves their part of the narrative.
DeleteIt is particularly interesting to look at Cathy as Eve in this story: the ruined garden and the impacts it has on Adam, who was living in blissful ignorance of his own construction, which is shattered and leaves him haggard after he is shot. The new brothers...
I think that Cathy or Kate's changes in her personality have to to with whose trust she is willing to gain. With both her parents and Faye the way to impress them and gain their trust was through being helpful and kind. In a way she turns into the person that they want to see.
DeleteI bring up the idea that she definitely acts differently around females -- she is kind without fail to those from which she has nothing to gain. She has nothing to gain from the other whores, so she is helpful towards them -- which is not something she has to do, she could act completely neutral toward them and still go forward with her agenda.
DeleteI don't know if it is necessarily that she has a personality disorder. I think it is more just that she acts in a way that is convenient with her situation. She knew with Adam she didn't have to do anything for her to still think she is an angel, but in the brothel she does. Her status there isn't that she is pretty, it is that she is helpful to the girls and a "friend" of Fayes. She acts in a way that will advance her situation socially, not in the way that she always wants to.
DeleteAt the end of Chapter 22, Adam says to the twins "Caleb and Aaron- now you are people and you have joined the fraternity and you have the right to be damned." At this point in the book, Cathy has changed her name several times (Cathy/Catherine/Cathy/Kate). Does this mean she does not truly have a name? What does this say about her humanity, and her character as a whole? What do the shifts in her name show about her shifts as a character?
ReplyDeleteThis doesn't answer your question at all, but I feel the need to post it anyways: Keep an eye on what Caleb and Aaron do to their names (and why it might be significant).
DeleteI would say that her name, like her personas, are different faces for the same underlying being. They're all very similar, stemming from the root name of Catherine; her personas as well follow near to the truth about her experiences and her life, just enough so that they're believable. In a sense, she's circling around a singular intention with several different means of getting there, if that makes sense
DeleteAlso, there is a brief quip where Faye says she doesn't use her true names either, and I wonder why names are so paramount to character development as well, for often the prostitutes aren't named, or go by a separate name that most likely is an alias.
DeleteI think that this has to do a lot with the fact that Kate (at this point in time) transforms as a character to please those around her, for an instant. She uses this to take advantage of those around her and exploit them... Lol, that doesn't make sense.
DeleteI love this question- with each new persona, is Cathy accepting a new damnation? Or is it her way of escaping judgement? Her blatant disregard of her name implies an inherent disregard for her personhood- she is so self-contained that she does not define herself by how others see her. (By that I mean, names are primarily useful as labels and differentiators in conversation- you probably never, or at least very rarely, use your own name in your internal monologue. Cathy appears to see herself as the only person- she does not recognize depth or humanity in a anyone else, and thus she likely feels an inherent differentiation from those around her. Thus, her name is to her useless- she does not need it for herself, and she doesn't care enough about other people to tailor it to the people around her.)
DeleteWith each change of her name, she does not lose a part of herself, but breaks herself into another piece. It reminds me a lot of Voldemort and the horcruxes in the Harry Potter series. I agree with what Grace said, in the sense that every time she changes her name she changes herself a little bit, but I think that in changing her name, she breaks herself up a little bit more. It's like lying to a large group of people, but changing the lie slightly to appease the individual you're talking about. I think this also played a large part in her deterioration later on in the book. Like Voldemort falling into insanity, Kate had so many versions of herself and lies going on that her physical being may not have been able to support her, if that makes sense.
DeleteHello Everyone!
ReplyDeleteI would love to chat about Lee and the role that Steinbeck has him play throughout the novel. Back in out last socratic I was curious why Lee feels only comfortable talking to Samuel in perfect english and not Joe because Joe is a lesser role that really is not too important to the storyline other than just being there to assist his father. Now that I have read these chapters and Lee starts to talk english with Adam why do you think that Lee decided it was time to give Adam his full loyalty? Also I feel that every time Lee speaks his words are meaningful to the storyline, so why does Steinbeck make lee the voice of wisdom in the novel?
Lee is for sure a very interesting character. He says that he likes to be what people expect, "You look at a man's eyes, you see that he expects pidgin and a shuffle, so you speak pidgin and shuffle" (Chapter 15). Once he realizes Adam is more aware, he feels more comfortable being who he truly is around him, for Adam's preconceptions are diminished when Lee starts caring for him.
DeleteHello Parker A932. I am not exactly sure as to why Lee is made the voice of wisodm in the novel. Yet I find his parallels with Cathy interesting. He's living a lie as is Cathy. They both fit their identities to the perceptions imposed by others. Yet, Cathy's threatened by him. Why do you think Cathy was threatened by Lee?
DeleteI think Lee, much like Samuel, has an intuition about the motives and the integrity of people. He saw Samuel as a genuine person from the get go, someone who was gentle and not a threat to his secret, and so he allowed himself to open up.
DeleteAfter Adam was shot, he went through hell, and after Samuel confronted him he went through a short, but important transformation of character. He saw the mistakes he made in terms of Cathy, his ignorance, and he came to grips with them; this earned him the same integrity that Samuel had himself cultivated over many years, and so Lee finally let his guard down.
What is the significance of prostitutes, and why does Steinbeck speak almost favorably about the "whorehouse" institution throughout the book?
ReplyDeleteI think he speaks favorably because he believes it is a liberating and respectable line of work. To make it simple, prostitution is nothing to look down on and maybe Steinbeck wants to end the stigma against sex work in a time where it was seen as secretive, or trashy.
DeleteSteinbeck's flattering depiction of the whorehouses may serve as a figurative middle finger to the conservative culture & religious inclinations of his time. He disses the Bible many times throughout the book and then goes on to say that whorehouses and churches are two sides of the same coin. Whether this has any grounds in truth, I won't say, but it does seem to betray a secular inclination in the author.
DeleteJalil, that's a very astute comment. I never thought about his book being antiestablishment, yet it also seems like it has a strong religious and social commentary.
DeleteThis thought just came to my mind and I might be completely wrong, but there must be some kind of parallel in the Cain and Abel story to Cyrus as well. Since Steinbeck is so intentional with his writing, it makes me wonder if he chose to start Cyrus' name with a "C" for a reason. Did his life have its own parallel to that story?
ReplyDeleteSierra, I wonder the same thing. Initially, we thought Charles and Adam were Cain and Abel, (C&A), but now we think that Adam is, well, Adam. I wonder if the story just keeps repeating over and over, and if Steinbeck is socially commenting about our predisposition to repeating inherent human desires.
DeleteI think Jackson's right. Generation after generation, the story of Cain and Abel lives on. It seems obvious but I never grasped this idea and it's actually pretty genius, or at least, that's what I think.
DeleteIf Cyrus is Cain or "C" then who is his Abel or "A" equivalent?
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DeleteQuestion of Authorial Intent in Chapter 23: Why does Steinbeck choose to emphasize Samuel's aging at this point?
ReplyDeleteAging is often accompanied by Wisdom. Steinbeck stresses Samuels age in order to stress how crucial his inborn wisdom and intuition are it dealing with the events that have transpired; figuring out who Cathy really is, supporting Adam and bringing him back to reality, giving symbolic names to his children. Physically, his description helps further the perception that Samuel is a man who has seen the world and more, and so knows how to deal with things that threaten the status quo of life, the tranquility of the valley.
DeleteI agree with what Daniel said entirely. I also thought of it in a far less symbolic sense, and realized that this was one of the ways Steinbeck shows the passage of time in this book. He is often really unclear about how much time has passed between events, really what time period anything is falling in, but I noticed that he uses the physical descriptions of concrete characters, more specifically how these characters age, to show the passage of time.
DeleteI was thinking the same thing, does it mention anywhere that Cyrus had siblings? Maybe the Cain and Abel story is meant to be generational because of the bible saying we are descendants from Cain?
ReplyDeleteHow has Cathy/Kate been a vampire to those around her? After she has consumed alcohol, her teeth are described as "small and sharp, and the canines were longer and more pointed than the others" and her eyes "slitted and grew watchful and sardonic" Why does Steinbeck use imagery of a snake to describe her? Is Cathy a duality of Satan, and her more controlled (sober) self is Eve?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the relevance of Cotton Eye Joe (the blind piano player at Faye's)? Why did Steinbeck choose to include him?
ReplyDeleteWhat was Steinbeck's authorial intent by adding drinking and alcohol into the scene with Kate and Faye? Was it used for exaggeration or was it just a small part in the story?
ReplyDeleteIt's not necessarily a comment, but something that I find amazing about Steinbeck's writing is the fact that he creates an entire world, and not just one about the characters he wants in his story. The inclusion of Cotton Eye and the other people at the whore house and the people that come in go within a sentence really show the depth of the world that he writes in. I absolutely love his attention to detail in that sense.
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